Numbing, Remembering, Integration

SPEAKER_03 0:00

You don't want to face something. Correct. Right? So we can numb or distract in illicit ways and in ways that seem more recreational, but they're still destructive. Why are we doing that? Because to remember is painful. I don't want to go back to eight-year-old Timmy and stand with him as he had to face his abuser. Right. But if I don't go back and remember that, I can never integrate it. And these two things are linked. Okay. Integration is the ability to metabolize.

SPEAKER_01 0:37

And we're back. After a couple of weeks off, frankly, I was tired and had a lot going on. So I appreciate everyone tuning in for this episode. Before I get into the episode, I have one request. Please support the show by either sharing the episode with someone, leaving a generous review. And if you're really feeling generous, you can always go to the show notes, click on the link for supporting the show, and you can support financially with either three, five, or ten dollars a month because we don't monetize anything, we have no ads, it will help us keep everything rolling and bringing you the highest quality that I know you guys deserve and that you've come to expect from me. Now, this particular episode, my goodness, yeah, it's it's gonna be a heavy one. My guest today is Tim Ross, who is a mentor, coach. He has a very successful podcast. It's called The Basement with Tim Ross. In fact, I have all of his links from his IG to his Instagram, the link to his book, the link to his podcast on YouTube, it's all in the show notes. So please, please go follow him. You will not regret it. Now he's written a new book and it's called The Missing Piece. P-E-A-T, the opposite of turmoil, which is something that I've had personally in my life for a long time. Interestingly enough, when I started doing this podcast about about a year and a half ago, I did mention that I would utilize the platform as a form of self-therapy. Something that I know that I need, like most people, but just for whatever reason haven't gotten around to it. But these conversations have been so strong, so powerful, they have made me aware, they have caused me to take an introspective look at myself, of my life, and it's been it's been a beautiful journey. So within just a few minutes of my conversation with Tim, I reveal something that is extremely personal to me, something that has caused me a lot of pain, and I've managed to mask it in a way and made myself believe it meant nothing, that it had no impact on me, but it did. And I'm going to share that with my audience here today. This book will change your life, it will help you no matter where you are in life. I encourage you to read it, I encourage you to get a copy and send to someone else. It's for men, it's for women, it's for people of all ages, it's for every ethnicity, it doesn't matter where you're from. Before we are separated by class, by race, by gender, we are truly unified by spirit and just by being human. So if you've struggled with something in the past, and maybe you have not given it a voice and you have not found your own peace, it's simply missing. This conversation is for you. Welcome.

SPEAKER_03 4:27

Stefan, it's a pleasure to meet you, man. Thank you so much for having me on.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

Likewise, it's a pleasure to have you on. The book, The Missing Peace, not Peace as in a part of something, but Peace, B-E-A-C-E, as in the whole of one. And the man behind it is Tim Ross. Yes, sir. I want to thank you immensely for being on the pod and being part of this conversation. This is much needed. So thank you and welcome to Man What Matters. Thank you so much, Stefan.

SPEAKER_03 4:58

I'm grateful to be here with you.

Tim Ross On Abuse And Addiction

SPEAKER_01 5:00

So I want to dive right into it. You argue that people are not necessarily broken, they're just dysregulated and disconnected from true peace. You also argue that we've been chasing happiness, success, distraction. Elaborate on that a little bit and speak to how this came about.

SPEAKER_03 5:18

Yeah, so uh this came about through my own journey. I was sexually abused at the age of eight by an older teenage boy that lived across the street from me for about a six-month period of time. He was also abusive to my younger brother and every other kid around my age at the time. I didn't find that out uh with my younger brother until I was about 15. But obviously, for any child to go through something that traumatic, it leaves you dysregulated. And obviously, we didn't have this language back then, right? So there's so many of our cultures and uh societies that go through this type of abuse that we we grew up actually thinking it's just normal, quote unquote, or it's just a part of life. And so at 12, I was exposed to pornography. At 19, full-blown addict. And my mom actually caught me watching porn at 19 at 2 o'clock in the morning. And what should have been the most embarrassing, shameful night turned into the most freeing, liberating night. Because I always knew why I was looking at porn. I it wasn't porn wasn't the root of the issue, it was the fruit. And so it was just my numbing agent to deal with the stress, the, the, and, and the pain and the trauma. So uh I got to share with her that night exactly what happened. My younger brother shares what happened. My father shares what happened to him when he was five. And so this liberation happens to all of us in one night. I go to sleep, and when I wake up the next morning, Stefan, it's like a 2,000-pound slab of concrete came off my chest. That's all I could describe it as. It's like I felt like for 11 years, between eight and 19, I was duct taped, gagged, and bound. And just by saying it, I was free. Like it didn't change history, it didn't change what happened, but but just by it coming out of my mouth, instead of it coming out of my actions, I felt lighter, I felt freer. And then about six or seven months after that is when I gave my life to Jesus. I confessed Jesus as my Lord and Savior on January 14th of 96. That was 30 years ago. And then for the next two years, as I'm trying to unravel trauma, trying to unravel pain, I realized that by and large, the overwhelming majority of the church at that time was not trauma-informed. Yeah. They didn't know what to do with trauma except to pray it away, to cast out a demon, or to tell you to listen to worship music all day and read your Bible more. And so uh after two years of frustration and some suicidal ideation, because I thought, well, I must be so broken, not even the church can help me. Like I God can't even do nothing with me, you know. And then I sat down with a counselor. And the first counselor I sat down with gave me the same containment and non-judgmental perspective in love as my mom did and my dad did at 19. Yeah. And so for the last 30 years that I've been a believer, 28 of those 30 years, I've been in some form of therapy and/or counseling. And I realized how the marriage of those two things, and then the revelation that I got from scripture that the Holy Spirit was promised by Jesus, literally described as peace for the regulation of our nervous system, our bodily nervous systems. He is the ultimate. The Holy Spirit is not power, he is peace that once regulated empowers the believer to do all the supernatural things that God said that we could do.

Church Limits And Finding Therapy

Host Shares His Own Trauma

SPEAKER_01 9:12

Well, understood. So I'm silent and I I'm struggling to find the next words here because I didn't know this was going to be this impactful. I want to dive into the book and I want to ask you about certain things, things that are very specific, but I'm gonna say something on that I've never shared with, obviously, definitely not on the podcast, but I've never shared with um anyone other than I mentioned to my mother, and I mentioned it to my wife. And um that's where it stays. And I think I might have mentioned to my ex-wife, I was married before, and um it was heard and not heard, but it might have been the way I delivered it because it was delivered almost as almost there with some arrogance and a little cockiness behind it as opposed to the shame that I was actually feeling. But the same thing happened to me, and I was only about five. And um being raised in in Haiti, we in the middle class families, there are I always sounds fucked up saying this. I'm sorry. It's just there. It's just that we have maids, right? We have people that we you know, it's just it's a middle class world that in in these countries, at least then, I'm not sure what it's like now, but I know for sure that we had people that would that would hire to cook, that we had maybe another maid that was hired to take care of the errands and do the groceries, but there was one that was hired to take care of me, more like a man. And what's weird is I don't know how long it lasted, but every morning I remember darkness, I remember the smell of it, that she would abuse me sexually every morning before she got me ready for school. And I don't know if it was a period of three days, a week, or six months. I blocked it out of my memory, and when I went to school, the day went on, and I did not even think about the fear of the next morning. It was I just dealt with it. And the other thing that's crazy, uh Tim, is now I'm trying to recollect because I asked my mother who this person was if she remembers the time, and she can't think of a person that was hired just to take care of me in the morning and whatever. So now I'm thinking about it, might have been someone else. Point is it happened, and I remember vivid sensations, again, senses rather, you know, smells and things that that I wish I didn't remember. And the first time I felt safe discussing it, it was it was a weird thing. I was courting my wife, and we were getting ready to be in a serious relationship, and she wanted me to take all kinds of tests because I dealt with um a lot of my symptoms were like yourself, pornography. It was as many women as I could be with. My first relationships were definitely not monogamous. So when I got with my wife, she said, Look, I don't know what happened in your past, and I had not even talked to her about this yet, but she wanted me to go take all kinds of tests. She's like, We want to be together, I need to make sure you're good, I'll show you my test, you show me yours. But then I shared what happened to me when I was a child with her, and that was the first time I felt vulnerable, just reliving it again, and then talking to my wife about it. She made me feel safe, as in look, this is something that happened, and we talked about it. I don't have the means, I don't have the the the um the therapy, I've never dealt with anything other than self-medication. But I wanted to share that only because I've never talked about it openly, I've never talked about it on the podcast, and it's amazing to me just how common that actually is. Um your book talks about from going through it, it breaks up in three parts. Part one is to break the silence. You cannot heal what you refuse to speak. Trauma itself, it thrives in silence. Talk to us a little bit about that first piece of it, breaking the silence itself.

SPEAKER_03 13:28

Absolutely. And before I before I elaborate on that, Stefana, I just want to say thank you so much for your vulnerability. Um, the the thing that I find most sacred about vulnerability is that it is the part of us that we are never obligated to give. People talk about being open, they talk about being honest and transparent, but vulnerability is something that is beyond that. And it is not owed to anybody, it's an extravagant gift. And the fact that you gave it to me on our first on our first take is something that I don't take for granted. So thank you so much for trusting me with your vulnerability. Thank you, brother. Yeah. Um so breaking the silence, after 28 years of therapy, I came down to this synthesized statement. Whatever doesn't come up and out of our bodies through words will come up and out of our bodies through actions. So you show me somebody that can't control their anger, I'll show you somebody that punches walls or is domestically violent. You show me somebody that can express their loneliness, and I'll show you somebody that will withdraw themselves from the people that love them the most. We whatever we cannot articulate, we're going to act out. And so the catalyst for all change is to speak. Stefan, it's the first thing we came into the earth with is our voice. Before we could form a word, we had a voice. Yeah. And society from an early age does everything to discourage us from using our voice. Our parents discourage us from using our voice. Quit that quiet, boy. Yeah. Calm down. What did you say to me? Don't talk back. And so from a very early age, the the God-given voice that we were, I mean, think about it. A baby would not survive if they couldn't cry. Because it's the only language they have to express everything. I'm hungry, I'm tired, I have gas trapped in my belly, uh, I have poop in my diaper, I'm I've peed on myself. They have no words. I don't care if it's English, Chinese, but they can yell. Correct. And if they get it out, the voice is one thing. Let me go slow. The voice is one thing, the tears are another. Wow. So not only has our voice been been silenced, but then we've been told, especially as men, not to cry. And tears are signals to other human beings that they need to draw close to us. It's no wonder that so many men talk about how lonely they feel and how nobody understands them, and how nobody is really paying attention to the stress and the pressure that they feel. But these same men have been told they can't cry, which is the signal for other people to draw towards you.

Tears, Grief, And Human Presence

SPEAKER_01 16:44

That's something that needs to be said a little louder for those in the back, brother. Tears are the signal.

SPEAKER_03 16:51

Tears are so important. And tears of emotion are actually more viscous and thicker. Science has shown this than tears that come from anger. Tears that come from anger streak down our face. And the tears that come from sadness and brokenness and trauma, those are thicker. They slowly roll down the face. They're thicker. I was on a plane last month, and the young girl, I was in bulkhead in in the first uh row. She was on the second row opposite me in the window seat. I'll never forget this. She is bawling her eyes out before the plane leaves. I mean, so loud the whole cabin can hear her, okay? And her father had just died. She had been with her father in the ICU all the way up until she had to go back to the airport to fly home. And en route back to the airport is when her daddy died. Wow. So she felt this sense of loss, this sense of grease. I was there. I can't believe I wasn't there for his last breath. I tried to stay as long as I could, and then he died, and I feel so terrible. I'm the only sibling that left. I'm the only daughter that that left. And so I'm mumbling under my breath to the passenger over here. I know, I know he can't hear me, but I'm like, hug her. Hug her. You ain't gotta marry her, dog. Just hug her. Yeah. It won't be awkward, dog. She, this is a human being in distress, hug her. Obviously, the person doesn't do it. I have to kind of take my mind off it, put my headphones in. I'm distracted. I have to get up to use the restroom. Somebody's in the stall. When that person comes out, I'm about to walk in, but the person that came out was her. And so I said, please forgive me. I'm so sorry for the loss of your father. I lost mine in 2024. Are you opposed to me giving you a hug? That girl fell in my chest and snotted in my sweater. Yeah. And I just I just held her in the galley for like six minutes, man. Wow. While she cried. I don't know her. She don't know me, but her tears moved me towards her.

SPEAKER_01 19:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:03

I don't want to be so traumatized, nor do I want to be so calloused that when I see another person in pain, I cannot embrace them. I can't offer just presence. I she didn't need words. I don't have no words. I don't know her. But my presence did something to regulate her.

SPEAKER_01 19:21

The thing is, not only are we told to suppress that voice and that cry and those tears, well, it's also working the other way because when we see it, we don't know how to react to it. That's correct. So that's that's probably why the person next to her was sitting there not knowing what to do.

SPEAKER_03 19:40

That's exactly right. And here's the thing, here's the thing about reaching out with other people and connecting is it does something to you. Hearing that she lost her dad is gonna trigger something in me. I lost my dad two years ago. If I haven't managed my grief, then I don't help her, I just break out into tears and start crying as well. Right. So so this is why regulation is so important, and this is why the articulation, it's not just to feel hurt, to feel pain, is to be able to articulate this is why this hurts me. Yeah. I I see everything in pictures. When you talk, I'm actually watching what you say more than I am listening to it. But when you tied even your own trauma to the scent, that could be a trigger. And not to be able to articulate that can leave the people that smell like that, like, well, he's so standoffish. He don't want to be around me. You know what I mean? He don't like me. And it's like, no, no, no, it has nothing to do with you. That scent is tied to a traumatic memory. And so if you see me see me kind of withdraw, you can keep wearing whatever wherever you want to wear. Just know that I'll probably be on the other side of the room because it still brings up something for me. Yeah, the ability to be able to articulate it helps you to regulate and it helps other people to understand you as well.

Recovery Stage One Safety

SPEAKER_01 21:00

That's right. And this applies really to everyone, but men in particular, the way we deal with it is we suppress abuse through uh addiction and there's shame. There's a survival strategy. And and I'm not sure it's not a good strategy, but it's one we know to use because there's no coaching generally. It's we're starting to normalize getting help. We're starting to normalize these things. And I'm not one of those. Um when I hear everybody's broken, everybody's messed up, and this and I disagree. I mean, I know everyone's got a piece of something that they dealt with that life isn't perfect, obviously. But I know plenty of people who are doing just fine. I guess you'll never know what what lies beneath, but but there are plenty of us who are struggling and who are out here and not knowing how to deal with it. So that leads me to part two of your book, which is the recovery. Yes. Break the silence, and then there's a discovery. And in part two, it's interesting because I like the way you put it together. It's like a more like a curriculum or syllabus to follow. You have stage one, which is safety and stabilization.

SPEAKER_03 22:12

So when I started walking through my journey of healing from the sexual abuse, what I realized first is that if I don't have a safe mind, a safe body, and a safe zone, I'm not gonna heal. I don't care what my best attempts are, if my mind isn't safe, if my body isn't safe, and if if the space isn't safe, I will not heal. I grew up in LA around gang culture. My older brother founded a gang. If you got shot in the street, the the ambulance shows up right where you got shot. But they don't treat you there, nor do they stabilize you there and try to heal you there. Yeah. They got to take you up out of there. Right. We got to get up off the hood right now, dog. You can't stay here. You will not survive here, right? Yeah. Because they might come back and shoot all of us, right? So that's right. They don't even take you to a general place. If you have been critically wounded or if they got you stabilized, you are in the intensive care unit. You're in a special place so that your body, your mind, can start to heal. So for me, I had to make sure my mind was safe from myself first. And that might sound like a well, wait a minute. Well, how much of my self-narrative at the point that I started therapy was defined by my abuse? How much of my self-narrative was defined by my addiction? I had to make sure my mind wasn't sabotaging my healing. I had to ensure that what I was saying about myself wasn't contradicting the recovery journey that I was on. So the mindset had to change, and the language and the information I was giving myself about my addiction, about my abuse had to change. And then I had to make sure my body was safe. I had to make sure I wasn't in places that were going to trigger it into relapse. So there are patterns that we have created for ourselves that that have to be changed so that our bodies can heal. I'll never forget going to a wedding several years ago, and it was beautiful, but there was something about the reception that was giving club. And I used to be a hoe. So I I love Jesus and I'm following his teachings, and my body still remembers hoeing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:46

And this atmosphere, even with the commitment I've made to Christ, was not conducive to me being okay. So once I felt it, I became self-aware of it. I didn't get scared by it. I wasn't, you know, dysregulated. But once I felt like, oh no, this could be, if I stay here, it ain't gonna be good for me. Right. I dipped. I didn't see the cutting of the cake. I didn't see them take their first dance. I didn't hear nobody's toast. I was in the car and I was go. Right.

SPEAKER_01 25:18

That makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 25:19

Yeah. And we can't be ashamed, Stefan, when we find ourselves in those moments. We're not being weak by, oh man, you punking out. Like, especially as men, we think, man, you should be able to take that. Don't let this person punk you. Don't let this environment punk you. I thought you were stronger than that. Strength is being able to know where you're weak. Ooh, man. Listen, is that copyrighted?

SPEAKER_01 25:42

You can make it a t-shirt today, bro. Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_03 25:46

Strength is when you are aware of your weakness and you can acknowledge it. How many of us have played ourselves acting like we were stronger than we were in an instance, and then got to make a stupid excuse when we fell into the thing that we knew we was gonna fall into if we stayed around it in the first place? Correct. So we gotta know examples, and history is always written by the winners, right? But but some of the greatest military strategies at one point or another was retreat. Yeah. That's right. You you gotta know when to hold them and know when to fold them, right? That's right. We we gotta go. We are outmanned here. And so safe bodies are important. And then safe bodies gotta be in a safe space. Okay. Your environment has to be conducive to your healing. I know people that are in situations that are out of their control. We we talk to a lot of people in the prison system uh that listen to um our podcasts and and read our materials, our resources, and even in prison, they have a safe mind, they're getting a safe body, but they're not in a safe environment. Correct. So they're trying to create cultivate a culture with other inmates so that if my celly and those adjacent to me adopt our same mindset, at least our pod will be safe. Yeah. We can't make the whole the whole prison safe, but if we can make our space safe, that's when healing really begins.

Remembrance And Integration Explained

SPEAKER_01 27:22

Awesome. Stage two of this recovery process is called remembrance. Yes, sir. So that's facing it. That's facing the trauma, facing the grief, facing the past wounds, not avoiding it, and not praying it away. That's correct. And stage three is integration. Now that I don't necessarily understand, so I'd love to have your input on that. Help me understand what you mean by integration, yes, awareness, tools, etc.

SPEAKER_03 27:54

Absolutely. So super excited to talk about this. So remembering is the most daunting thing you can do, which is why we numb and distract. There's only two ways that we get away from anything that we don't want to be bothered with. We either numb ourselves to it or we distract ourselves from it. And we we we we we can talk about all the vices, right? There's a long litany of vices of what we can numb and distract ourselves with, whether it's pornography, masturbation, cocaine, a blunt, clubbing, gaming, yeah, clubbing. Exactly. So this is the other side that we really we really don't see as numbing agents and distractions, but they're just the same, right? So I go out, uh, I retail spend, I get I do recreational gambling, right? How many people have lost some pigmentation to their beards and their hair because their March Madness bracket just blew up? Right? Uh you you got Netflix binging that people will say is innocent, but if your bills are overdue, you don't want to face something. Correct. Right? So we can numb or distract in illicit ways and in ways that seem more recreational, but they're still destructive. Why are we doing that? Because to remember is painful. I don't want to go back to eight-year-old Timmy and stand with him as he had to face his abuser. Right. But if I don't go back and remember that, I can never integrate it. And these two things are linked. Okay. Integration is the ability to metabolize the negatives of our lives into our overall existence and journey. Instead of it floating out here and always being, this happened to me, and because it is, I can't do that, and the reason why I'm like this, and I'll always be like this, because I'll never let nobody else do that to me again, that's because it hasn't been integrated yet. Okay. And the integration of our negative realities is what makes us a whole person. It's the reason why I can talk about this without breaking down crying.

SPEAKER_00 30:10

Yeah.

Living In Peace Through Regulation

SPEAKER_03 30:10

Jay-Z has a line that for some reason always pops in my head when I think about remembering. I remember vividly what these streets did to me. So picture me letting them knit picket me. Paint me like a pickany. There has to be a remembering in order for there to be integration. You cannot integrate what you refuse to remember. And so a sexual trauma happened in my life. It is not my life. And I can only say that because it's been integrated into my life. And there's some scars from it, and there's some there's some ticks from it, but because of the work I've done, there's an awareness of it. I'm not self-conscious of this, I'm self-aware of this. There's a difference. So, Stefan, self-consciousness keeps you conscious of yourself at the expense of everybody around you. So you don't check for nobody but you. Yeah. Self-awareness makes you aware of self and everyone else around you. So I am aware of me in relation to you. I'm grateful, even though this is audio, I'm grateful I get to see you because to be able to pick up on your facial expressions, which are 55% of all communication, 55% is body language, 38% is tone, 7% is what you actually say. Right. So we talk with our entire bodies. And me being able to see your facial expression lets me know the aha moments or the I got a question about that, the pensive moments. But if I'm if I'm self-conscious, then I'm just right. I I don't care nothing about your face, don't care nothing about what you go through, don't care if you want to edge it, a word in edge-wise. I'm just thinking about me. Self-awareness attunes you to you and everybody else. That awareness and the integration of all the work that you've done just allows you to be more present for yourself and others.

SPEAKER_01 32:14

That's amazing, man. Part three of the book talks about living in peace. Again, it breaks down the true step-by-step. Here's how a lot of things that I've read on the subject are rather abstract. There's an approach that is a very holistic approach, and you don't feel the connection. Whereas with this book, I feel, and I think everyone else picking it up will feel the same way, as if, like, hey, this is speaking directly to me, and here is a step-by-step guide on how I address things. The outcome obviously is emotional stability, uh, nervous system regulation. That's different, that's new to me. Yes, sir. Yes, the ability to face life without collapsing internally. There's a line here peace is not the absence of problems, it is the ability to remain grounded in the problems. Yes, sir. So talk to me about that a little bit, Tim.

SPEAKER_03 33:14

Yeah, man. So so this entire this entire was book was written off of a verse that I read in the Gospel of John. Okay. The Gospel of John, chapter 14, verse number 27. There's many different translations of it, uh, but the synthesis of it is this Jesus says, I am leaving you with a gift, peace of heart and mind. And the gift that I am leaving you, the world can't give it. Now, I'm a wordsmith, I live with words, I talk for a living. The biggest implication of that statement is the world does have a version of peace, but it's temporary. But what I'm giving you is permanent. Then he says, Neither be thou troubled or afraid. Now, this wasn't some abstract thing about if you give your life to Jesus, you'll get goosebumps and then you just have peace. He literally promising that the Holy Spirit's going to come live on the inside of you and give you this peace. Not power, peace. Yeah. Right? He literally says in Acts chapter number one, you shall receive power after the Holy Spirit has come upon you. Okay. Peace comes and then power comes. We we've all seen what happens to power when there's no peace. We're watching it happen in Iran. Peace is not some euphoric, tranquil thing. It's literally the regulation of one's nervous system. And the regularity of a nervous system means that I can calm and quiet myself when I sense myself being triggered. You can experience hurt, pain, trauma, and quickly be able to regulate. Like, oh my goodness, this really is bothering me. If there's an if something angers you, that doesn't mean that you've lost your temper. Anger is information. All of our emotions are signals, they're they're snitches. They are coming to tell us that something's either wrong or right. And once the once the informant comes to give me the information, I'm responsible as to how I react to it.

SPEAKER_01 35:21

Slow down, man. Hold on a second. It's just listen, you've been dropping them since we started, but I'm gonna slow down on this one again. Yeah. Emotions overall are snitches. It's all information. They're telling you what's happening. And we have to pause on that for a second because it means so much. It's not just the anger, but even the good emotions, right? Even those that you particularly enjoy, it's telling you something, and then you decide what to do with that information, and I just overreact to it. Correct. That's groundbreaking, man. I love that.

Emotions As Signals Not Enemies

SPEAKER_03 35:55

Yeah. Okay, so there's this there's this dope story uh in the Bible. It's in Mark 4. Jesus and his disciples are on a boat, they're going to the other side of this lake. This storm breaks out. Now, the majority of these guys are fishermen, so they know water, they know storms, they've been out on it. It's regular dayler. This had to be so bad because they go and wake bro up. They go wake Jesus up. And Jesus is not like he didn't get lulled to sleep by the rocking of the waves. The scriptures say he was under a pillow, right? So this dude was knocked out. He was having himself a good nap. And these grown men are so shook on seas that they have ridden before that they wake them up. And they're dysregulated. The rocking of the boat and the wind and the waves, it dysregulated them. And once dysregulated, they began to misinform themselves about the situation they were in. And we know they had misinformation by what they say to Jesus. Here's what they say Master, don't you care that we're perishing? Don't you care that we're dying? Now, were they dying? No, they were not actually dying. But the thought that Jesus set them up to go on a boat to kill them and not him lets everybody know that's reading it that they don't know Jesus and they don't know their current plight right now because they're dysregulated. So here's what Jesus does: Jesus gets up and he doesn't talk to them. He doesn't even address them yet. Why? They're dysregulated. He goes out to the bow of the ship, he speaks to the wind. The scripture says he rebukes the wind. And then he tells the waves to calm down. He says, peace, be still. This is important. Only a regulated nervous system can do this. A dysregulated nervous system rewrites the narrative and it's always going to be negative. A regulated nervous system can discern what's really going on and knows what to rebuke and what to tell to calm down. The waves are not the issue. The waves are what's rocking the boat, and that's what's scaring the disciples, but the waves aren't the issue. The wind is. The wind agitated the waves that rocked the boat. So what Jesus says is, okay, I'm gonna rebuke you because you're the agitator and you're the recipient of the agitation, so you calm down. And once the waves calm down, the boat calms down, and only when the boat calms down do the disciples calm down, and only when the disciples calm down does Jesus talk to them. You cannot reason with a dysregulated person.

SPEAKER_01 38:32

Yeah, and that's one of the core concepts of your book is this this uh regulation. Examples is overreacting, like you just mentioned, yes, shutting down. I'm not gonna lie to you, I would be overreacting on that boat too. Listen. Hey brother, I've seen you do some miracles and you're asleep. We're about to die. What was going on? So I'll be kind of dysregulated. You know, there's there's anxiety spirals all through that. And that's what the your dysregulation um, that's one of the concepts of the book. The emotional system is overwhelmed, your reactions don't necessarily match your situation. Correct.

SPEAKER_03 39:10

That's absolutely correct.

SPEAKER_01 39:11

And your body's trying to cope.

SPEAKER_03 39:13

That's exactly right. Here's what I hope uh and pray for this book is that people that have never gone to therapy before, this is this is really their starter drug. This is their gateway drug, right? Like I want people, if they never, if they never darken a therapist door, if they never go to a counselor to seek some more structured help, my hope is that they can at least get language to some of this stuff. Because if you don't have the language, you you don't even know what you're looking for. Because you don't know what you don't know. But but once you realize, oh, wait a minute, my nervous system is calm when this happens, and then it's not calm when this happened, that's called dysregulation. Then we have a choice. Why do I keep allowing this person to dysregulate me? Why do I keep allowing this situation to dysregulate me? Once you realize you have a choice in that this is not just, it just happens to me. I can't control it, then we can make better decisions.

SPEAKER_01 40:11

That's right. And you talk about these behaviors, we've touched on them before, the maladaptive behaviors, you know, the gambling, the workoutism, the porn and gaming, and and then it goes into now. This one I really want to touch on because I thought it was a little strange to read that happiness is temporary and it's external, whereas with peace is internal, stable, and enduring. I like what you're saying about peace, but I think there are a lot of monks over thousands of years who disagree with you that happiness is external. I've learned the exact opposite. Obviously, yes, when we're younger, we're seeking happiness through material things, we're seeking happiness from others, and you know, we're comparing ourselves, and we're there's envy and all of that. But as you get a little older, as you mature, um, people age differently, of course. So people mature a little quicker than others, but for me it took a while to realize that happiness was found within. Now you're telling me it's temporary, it's totally external. Peace is what's enduring, internal, and stable. How did you come up with that concept?

SPEAKER_03 41:18

Yeah, so um when we think about happiness, we think about a state, we we think about a condition. And the reason why I say that happiness can't be the thing that can be eternal and enduring on the inside of us is because it's based on circumstance. So peace isn't based on circumstance, right? I know people I was uh speaking in Chicago this this weekend. I I know people in prison more at peace than people in their house. Okay, you would think the person inside the prison is unhappy, and the person outside the prison is happy. But it's always going, that's always based on external environment, right? So happiness and contentment, as much as people think this is an internal thing, and I and I'm happy within, I'm happy with self and all that kind of stuff. It's like, okay, does your is that tied to your bank account? Is that tied to the air conditioning right now? Your comfort? Is that tied to the convenience of everything around you? Peace is not tied to any of those things.

SPEAKER_01 42:26

I'm gonna paraphrase, but I think you said something along the lines of happiness can end with a phone call. It sure can. It absolutely can, right?

SPEAKER_03 42:35

And so our peace is the barometer that anchors us. Because again, happiness is an informant. That's why I know it can't be uh uh the thing that we're ultimately after. First of all, because of my belief system, in Isaiah chapter number nine, the coming Messiah is described as wonderful counselor, everlasting father, mighty God, prince of peace. If he indeed is the prince of peace, what's the only gift he could give? Peace. He said, This gift I'm leaving you with. If he would have said happiness, cool. I the book would have been about happiness, it would have been the missing happiness, right? Yeah, but he promised peace because peace is the regulator that allows you to enjoy and endure everything else.

Happiness Versus Peace Debate

SPEAKER_01 43:24

Gotcha. Now, I'm not a religious man, I believe deeply, and that's another conversation that I would love to have, but we're not gonna have it today. I personally believe that religion tends to box in God in a way that God is much greater than it's almost offensive when I look at it in a certain way, but again, that's a different conversation. You've given your life to Jesus, and your compass is based on the Bible, its teachings, etc. With that being said, you also talk about. Therapy and these core principles in the book. So talk to me about church versus therapy, because it's two very different principles. And what you're teaching, even though to use your word integration, I find that it's one listening to you, and it's easy to follow. Thank you. But that's not what historically has been the case, right? It's we are, especially in the black community, we have an issue, we pray about it, we go think about it, sleep on it, etc. And it's totally uh and therapy is not necessarily part of that mix. So church versus therapy. Break that down for me a little bit.

Church Versus Therapy And Silence

SPEAKER_03 44:35

I think the church is at a reckoning because of their years and years and years of dismissing therapy and mental health. We have more lead pastors having to step down from their positions because it's not just moral failures, it is the overall ignorance of their mental health. All falls come from there. I have empirical data on this, okay? I've been a believer for 30 years, I've been in ministry for 30 years. Here's my empirical data. Every single fall is because somebody was silent. Silence, silence is the reason. We call it sin. If there's any sin, it's the sin of silence. All falls can be tracked back to the fact that you did not say something. And because you didn't say something, you did something. Wow. Okay. Now we are learning our lessons from seeing people that we love and that we've esteemed in ministry for years and years and years, overnight lose influence, overnight lose a reputation, overnight give a black eye to uh the faith that we declare, all because they didn't have a safe space to share something with. Before I even get to what I'm gonna say, let me give the case in point that I always give, especially when it comes to so many Christian male leaders who have fallen because of sexual sin. Here's what I coach all my mentees on, all leaders, even if they're not in uh leading churches, if they're leading organizations, nobody has ever had to step down for thinking about sleeping with their secretary. Right. Okay, it's never happened in the history of happiness, okay? Right. And in the same way, nobody's ever going to prison for capital murder for wanting to shoot up them all. I thought it, I didn't do it. Correct. But if I can't say it, I might do it. And then I blow my whole world up. But if I think I can't come to Stefan and say, man, hey, hey dog, yo, I know we just did this interview and tell you about this book. He told you I'm a man of the cloth and all that kind of stuff. A dog, that girl, booty big, dog, I didn't think I was gonna be attracted to her. I didn't wake up this morning wanting to look at somebody beside my wife, but homegirl almost broke my neck. Right? If I don't get to share that, and if you're gonna be like, oh, and I thought this fool, this fool ain't really about the fake. If I don't get to have a human moment to confess to my brother that somebody made me weak, then all I'm gonna do is bottle that up. No, I can dug it out. And then I'm gonna wind up in her DMs.

SPEAKER_01 47:15

You fear judgment when you speak. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. And you fear being called a hypocrite, especially when you hold a position of influence.

SPEAKER_03 47:24

That's right. We have backed ourselves, and I'm talking about people of the faith, we've backed ourselves into a corner to present this image that we don't struggle with what the rest of the world struggles with.

SPEAKER_00 47:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:36

When God called us all off the street, so I know you ain't better than me, and I know I'm not better than you. Why? Because we all got called off somebody's block. There is nobody in the church that came from in the church. We all came from outside. And so the integration of therapy and faith for me comes from scripture. Like I'm not trying to, you know, I'm not trying to hot wire something to get something started. If you look in Genesis chapter number three, you will find that the story of the fall, God's response, Adam and I's response to the story of the fall, the first two questions he asked, if we go off the creationist view of history, and Adam and Eve being the first two people, God's two first questions to them, the first two questions he ever asked any human being on the planet, according to scripture, were the same two questions the therapist would ask you. Where are you? And who told you that? Those are the first two questions he ever asked humanity. When Adam and Eve sinned, they hid because of their shame, and God came and asked Adam, Where are you? That's the same question the therapist would ask you on your first session. God wasn't asking Adam because he he couldn't find him. That sounds ridiculous. Right?

SPEAKER_01 48:54

You're God, you kind of know where I am.

SPEAKER_03 48:56

Yeah, yeah. So why would God ask, Where are you? If he's omniscient, if he's omniscient, if he's all-knowing, why would a therapist ask you, where are you? What's going on in your life right now? Because they want to know, are you aware of what you've done? Right. This is God's first attempt at making humanity self-aware. Because after sin, they were self-conscious.

SPEAKER_01 49:22

So you blend faith and neuroscience. People always feel like one needs to negate the other, right? If you're a believer, then you need to not believe in science and vice versa. And I always think that no, there's a perfect blend for both to exist. And you're also saying that the Holy Spirit is the regulator. Yes. He absolutely is. So are you suggesting then that in order for someone to take these first steps to get the help they need, say they've never seeked out anything before, and they're not particularly religious, or they're not a believer, or whatever it may be, that the complete package, so to speak, or the right formula is that they would need to blend the two like you do?

SPEAKER_03 50:04

I wouldn't say that. What I would say is the foundational thing is to speak. I had the most revolutionary moment outside of giving my life to Jesus, the most revolutionary moment of my entire life was confessing to my mom at 19 that that boy abused me. I told you, it was like a 2,000-pound slab came off my chest. Here's what I always tell people because people will hear me talk and they'll be like, Well, I ain't gonna never be believing Jesus now. What? I'm like, just get over your trauma then. If you're never gonna give your life to Jesus, I'm advocating for you to be a person that normalizes vulnerability for the sake of yourself and everybody around you. It's not easy for anyone to do that. And that's why this is my B hag. This is my big, hairy, audacious goal. I literally, my podcast is centered around this, the community that we have formed over the last almost four years. I am literally trying to normalize vulnerability for every human being on earth so that every human being is fully seen, fully heard, fully known, fully loved, even if they're not fully agreed with. Because four out of five ain't bad.

Men, Fathers, And Learning To Cry

SPEAKER_01 51:19

That's really good. Why do you think men would rather distract themselves rather than actually sit in that pain or face that pain?

SPEAKER_03 51:28

We weren't taught to, and it's unfortunate. I won the lottery, Stefan, and I already know it. Like I don't have to ask nobody, I don't have to, I don't have to qualify my statement, I don't have to give no disclaimers. I had the best dad on earth. Wow. Hands down point blank, period. I had the best dad on earth. Charles Ever Ross. I am Timothy Charles Ross, Charles Ever Ross, the best dad on earth. Now, the reason why I believe he's the best dad on earth, because he had one of the worst dads on earth. That caused him a lot of trauma, a lot of pain. He endured sexual abuse at five by the owner of a comic book store and then still became the best dad on earth. Wow. Not an angry man, not a vengeful man, not a hateful man, not a physically abusive man, not an emotionally abusive man. That dude overcame all of that and became the best dad on earth. Okay. I'll never forget uh I used to climb up a tree in front of our house. It's a property I'm actually trying to buy. I want that childhood home. Uh, but the tree is still in front of it. I used to climb that tree up to the top, and a telephone wire ran through it, and I used to stick gum on the telephone wire. And then I would climb back down the tree. So I'm climbing back down the tree one day, and there's a caterpillar. Bruh, it's a caterpillar. I might be eight or nine. That caterpillar might as well be the dragon from the Lord of the Rings. It was smog. You freaked out. It was smog from the Lord of the Rings, fam. I was cooked. So I'm screaming to the top of my lungs. And my dad comes out and he's standing there, and I'm up in the tree hugging a branch, um, a big branch, and and and he's like, Come down. No, no, no, yeah, it's right there, it's right there. He's like, It's not gonna hurt you. And then he thumped it. Yeah, he just thumped it, and I came down and he was like this. Bit you up with his arms and I cried, and I cried in his arms, and he didn't say, Why are you crying over a caterpillar?

SPEAKER_00 53:40

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 53:42

He let me, he let me have my moment. And I knew at a very young age, I I have countless instances of this, but that one just stuck up my mind. It's so vivid. I have countless instances of my dad containing me while I cried. Just letting me have the moment. You did win the lottery, brother. I did, bro. I did. I know I did. I know I did, I know I did. And so when I'm around other men that don't feel like they can do that, I get angry because I know they were robbed. Yes. Like it makes me want to cry, bro. Like, yeah, it it makes me that angry. Yeah. Because we have a whole generation of men that were not given permission by their fathers to even acknowledge their pain. Not given permission by their mothers to even acknowledge their pain. So I'm sitting over here with a skinned up knee, and your response is quit that crying. Yeah. Be a big boy. I'm gonna grow into my body. I'll be a big boy one day. I'm six.

SPEAKER_01 54:53

You know, it breaks my heart. So this is a public apology to my son because I was, I don't think I was a total asshole, but I was that dad because I didn't know better. If I treated my girls, I'd climb up that tree and go get them. My boy, you're coming down.

SPEAKER_00 55:14

You know, they just gotta go.

SPEAKER_01 55:16

It's what I need you to face that fear. And I didn't have the tools, I didn't have the resources to know better and be a better dad. So I think of it now. I'm listening to that, and I'm I'm picturing myself at the bottom of that tree and how I would have miserably failed it. Not today. Right. They say the the axe never remembers, but tree does, right? Correct. Yeah. So I can only think of how many instances where I failed my son. He needed that containment that you just talked about. What a wonderful word is just to be that container for you for those fears, for those tears. That's right. I love what you just said. I'll be a big boy soon enough. And here's the thing bigger than you, taller than you, my son powered over me. That's right. Mine too. Yeah, soon enough, you'll don't worry, he'll be a bigger man than you ever were. But I didn't know what to do with the tools we were given. If only we could go back and start over with the minds that we have now. Um I lost my dad in 2024, like you did you lost yours.

SPEAKER_03 56:25

Oh man, I'm so sorry.

SPEAKER_01 56:27

Same, brother, same. I'm sorry as well. And the thing is, um, when you talked about winning the lottery, that's another thing that we suffer with um as as grown men is wanting that father. I had a uh an episode where we talked about our relationship with our dads, and I picked two men to be on the show with me that had one is still alive and the other the other his father passed, and they're phenomenal dads. I did not win the lottery. Understood. Neither did my dad. You know, exactly. It's interesting, right? Because most of us don't. Yes. It's extremely rare. How many of the people that you talk to, the people that you that you mentor, people that you work with, do you think they're functioning, but internally they're falling apart?

SPEAKER_03 57:18

Yeah. Um I talk about this at length that we have a lot of people, they're externally functioning, but internally failing. Right? And this all goes back to being unseen. This formula of being fully seen. I don't just say seen, known, heard, loved. Fully seen, fully heard, fully known, fully loved. Most human beings walk this earth fearing if I'm fully seen, fully heard, fully known, I will not be loved. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 57:54

Okay.

unknown 57:55

Right?

SPEAKER_01 57:55

If you truly could see my darkness, my demons, if you could from you, my imagination thinking about some crazy shit. Like if you could see that, there's no way you could possibly love the person I really have.

SPEAKER_03 58:10

Exactly, exactly, right? Which is why God's love is so absolutely astronomical. Yeah. Because how can you know everything about us, you know exactly what we're gonna do, and you love us anyway? Yeah. I can't I wouldn't do that, right? Right. But through his love, if I'm able to offer that, human beings drastically change. We last year we did a show for a year called Wide Open. It was a three hour live show. But Stefan, two of the three hours, all we did was take live calls from literally all over the world. People stay up late in Australia, in Singapore, and Philippines just to call in. They would a stateside, they they would call from the Caribbean, they call from the UK. So this girl calls one day. I want to say it's it's gotta be in my top five calls last year. Doug, I'm talking hood chick, okay? She calls the show. She was like, hey, homie, I don't know you. My homegirl told me I should call in. And so I decided to call in, and she let me hear like a couple of your pods yesterday, and I was like, okay, I can I can F with homeboy. I can F with him. And so I'm calling the day. She wanted me to call. Ain't nothing that's gonna change, but like, I'm getting an abortion tomorrow. You know, and then she told me the whole relationship she had with this dude or whatever. She was like, I'm getting an abortion tomorrow. I was like, okay. I said, I'm just more concerned about you though. She was like, Well, I already know you're gonna judge me once I tell you this. So she told me the whole story. I was like, man, I don't judge you. I actually, I actually love you more that you told me something that you never had to tell me. Wow. Yeah. And so we wind up having this discourse. We I'm a gamer. She starts talking about games that she wanted or whatever. She was like, I want to play the new Ghost of Tsushima, but I don't have it's too much money right now. So I was like, give me a Cash App, I'll send you the money right now. So she gave the Cash App, but then our whole community that was watching on live, they started Cash Apping her too. Oh wow. It broke the Cash App. Cash App thought it was fraud. They shut her down after she had got hundreds and hundreds of dollars. At the end of it, I said, now, just based on my belief system, I do have to advocate for this child. I said, It's your body, you can do whatever the hell you want, but I'm I'm advocating for this baby. I was like, God is the giver of life. I don't think homie got you pregnant. I I know a lot of people that are married and been trying for years can't get pregnant, and you just oops and got pregnant. I'm like, I don't know what you're gonna do, but that ain't coming from nobody else but God. So, whatever choice you make, if you get an abortion tomorrow, I still want to rock with you. If you keep that child, I still want to rock with you. But I just want you to know that we're here for you. You shared something sacred you never had to share. She was like, you know what? I really appreciate you saying that. And I ain't making you no big old grand promises, but what I am gonna tell you right now is that I'm not I'm not having the abortion tomorrow.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:15

I got into like the 22nd. Today's only like the 15th. I'm gonna think about it some more. Right. And that was the call.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:22

I'm dying to hear the end, man. Did you ever find out?

SPEAKER_03 1:01:25

There ain't no end. That was the call. I wish I had the follow-up of like, and now her baby is four months old and woo-woo woo, right? Yeah. The moral is not whether we got a good end to the story, the one we want or whatever we think.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:39

It's that can can people be trusted to be seen fully by you. Yeah, and you not, ugh, girl, why you no? The devil is a lot. Come on, man. Yeah. After he's seen everything I do, everything you do, everything we do. And then somebody's gonna give us that sacredness to be vulnerable about where they are, and my response is gonna be anything other than I see you. Thank you for letting me see you. I hear you. Thank you for letting me hear you. I know more about you based on what you let me see and hear, and I still love you. I don't have to agree with you. That's why it's four out of five. I ain't gotta ever agree with you. But I'm gonna give you the first four.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:24

That's very powerful, Tim. That's um where I think the church is falling short and is failing people because they're too preoccupied with certain dogmas and judging, as opposed to giving people that space to truly be loved unconditionally. Correct. And I love your doctrine because that's exactly what you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:47

Yes, sir.

First Step Toward Real Peace

SPEAKER_01 1:02:50

For anyone listening right now, that person who is quiet, who's holding everything in, nobody really knows what they're dealing with. What is the first pragmatic step to take toward real peace?

SPEAKER_03 1:03:05

Yes, sir. Um, is first acknowledging your pain verbally, and you don't need another person in the room to do this. Okay. Everybody's soul needs space to speak. It doesn't even have to be what we would call a prayer. You can literally just say, like, okay, somebody's listening to this, somebody read the book, or they read a chapter. I got people that can't get through a chapter because it it already brings up emotions for them that they're like, oh, okay, hold on. I I thought I was gonna breathe through this one. I gotta slow down, right? Yeah. And so for me, it's like, okay, here's all I need you to do today. You listening to this, all I need you to do today, press pause on it, listen, listen to the pod in its completion, and then just go, okay, that happened to me too. Or my thing was never porn, but it's anger. I do got an anger problem. I know Joker's been telling me, and I've been curving them, I've been acting like it ain't a thing. That's a thing. Or I'm lonely. Just to be able to say it out loud, there is a phenomenon that I have been fascinated with for a very long time, and it is this the body, robbed of its words, will sabotage itself. How many people do you know that wind up with ulcers, cancer, headaches, stressors from hair falling out to teeth falling out, to all these things happening because we don't have words for our emotions. And so just to be able to once again break the silence. That's why it's the first part of the book. Right. Just to be able to crack that, the body will relax. Like, thank you for finally telling the truth about what we've been going through, dog. Damn. Right. You know, you know what I mean? Finally, you said it. And we've been acting out all these years. You finally articulated the pain. You you talked about where it hurt. I appreciate you saying that. And then from there, okay, I said it out loud. Now, how do you feel since you said it? Okay. Now, who's the person you trust the most? Hopefully, one person comes to mind. Tell them. Yeah. I was talking to friends for years before I was talking to anybody certified as a therapist with letters behind their name. I'm not telling people to uh quit their Starbucks orders the first month and scrape up some money to go talk to a therapist. Talk to somebody. Yeah. The first person that knew my pain was my mama. And I already felt lighter. Yeah. The therapist just gave me more tools, and this is why the forward was written by a certified therapist at a doctoral level. Yeah. Because I wanted to make to make sure the the language was trauma informed and that because I I don't, I'm not a clinician, I'm a client. Right. Right? So I wanted to make sure a therapist could sign off on it, and I'm so grateful that they done so. But we we gotta we gotta just help people make that first step, and that first step is not as big as they think.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:16

That's wonderful too. What is something that you wish I had asked you, but that I missed?

SPEAKER_03 1:06:23

Wow, I don't think I've ever been asked that question before. What is one question I wish you would have asked me, but you missed? Stefan, that question is actually so profound, I don't have an answer right now. I would have to think about it.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:41

I can appreciate that. Um, I read the book, I enjoyed it, I'm gonna read it again. God, I need therapy. And and and you know we all yeah, I'm grateful for this platform that I started doing this about a year ago, you know, and I told my friend when I was gonna start that this was gonna be my own therapy, and he said, Well, you're gonna have open therapy with the world. And every time I have conversations with people like yourself, I find that I get emotional, I find that I I get I I feel better, I get strength, I feel relieved. Um and I'm holding it back. I'm holding it back right now. It's what I'm used to. It's what I'm used to. I'm trying to dug it out, man. But I am very grateful for what you bring to not just this platform, but to the world and the mission that you're on. You're an incredible person, you're gonna help a lot of people. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:33

Thank you for the encouragement.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:34

Yes, sir. Where can we find you? I'm gonna put all this in the show notes so we can find the book, we can find your podcast, and we can follow your social media. Go ahead and give me the list.

Where To Find Tim And The Book

SPEAKER_03 1:07:46

Yeah, so the list of uh connectors um would be uh the basement with Tim Ross on YouTube. Okay, upset the gram is my handle on Instagram, upset the talk is my handle on TikTok. I have a Facebook out there. I don't remember what it is right now. It might just be the basement, it might be upset the book. I don't know. Everything about me is upset. So and that that upset is not about pissing people off and making them angry. My my contention is on January 14th of 96, my life was turned upside down by the message, love, and hope of Jesus Christ. Yeah. And I hope to spend my life upsetting everybody else's world as much as he upset mine. Wonderful. Where can we find the book? The book can be found if you go to upsettheworld.com. Okay, there's a link to all of our places for the book, whether it's your your favorite retail is Amazon, Barnes and Noble's, whatever. All the links can be found there. UpsettTheWorld.com. Gotcha. Yes, sir. Thank you so very much. Stefan, it's my pleasure, man.

Closing Tradition And Trump Impression

SPEAKER_01 1:08:53

I'm so grateful I got to meet you, man. Likewise, brother. We have a tradition on this podcast that when someone comes on, they have to do an impression on their way out. Okay. Okay, all right.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:05

This is, I don't think this is gonna be a good impression, but we're gonna go with it. Oh no, we always laugh. Okay, okay, Gregor, great. Okay. Um wait, wait. Who are you gonna be? I'm gonna be Donald J. Trump or Donald F. Trump. I like that one better. Donald F Trump.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:25

Let's go. Um, listen, everybody. I just did the show Manhood Matters with Stefan. Listen, it's the greatest show you're ever going to listen to. Biggest podcast in the world, very, very big podcast, very, very successful. It's beating everybody, it's beating Joe Rogan, it's beating all the Americans. We love a good Caribbean out here. I'm for the Caribbeans. I had this I had the largest Caribbean boat. I've also had the Caribbean chicken. It's very, very delicious. Everybody's nutritious, everybody's great. Get the book. I gotta go drop some more bombs on the red. We gotta get their oil. But uh I think this odd with this guy's damn. I think he's a good guy. He's a good guy. Really good guy, actually. Really good guy. Talks about Jesus a lot. Talks about one and two Corinthians. Anyway, the guy's gonna talk about beats. I'm not really about beats right now, but we'll get back to beats. Okay.