SPEAKER_00: 0:00

But everybody's been here. This is the beginning point. But we're trying to get you to this end goal. And it takes you to have the determination and the love for yourself to push you there. Because everybody said, Well, I need to be motivated. No, motivation comes second. It's your determination, your love for yourself to get you there. Once you start, the motivation comes. So love yourself first, accept yourself first in all these imperfections, anything except you, love you. Because if you're not gonna love you, who who else is gonna love you?

SPEAKER_05: 0:27

Yeah, and it's what you said is very, very powerful.

SPEAKER_06: 0:31

Motivation comes second. Fellas, you ever catch yourself looking in the mirror like I just hit the gym for two weeks straight? I cut out bread. I should be alright. Yeah, I know. We've all been there. The truth is, every man has a version of himself he wishes he saw in the mirror. The ideal self, the six-pack version, the confident, smooth, 25-year-old version that somehow never needed sleep or lotion. But then there's the real self, the one with a little extra around the waistline and maybe a little less hair on top, but has a lot more wisdom. And that version deserves all the credit, in my opinion. Today, making his way back to the pod, Kelly Saunders in his 40s, and my brother Santana Jackson making his way to the pod for the first time in seven months, and we're gonna discuss body image in men, how we see ourselves, what we're chasing, and how honest we are about it. From gym pressure to aging, from filters to fatherhood, we're gonna talk about what it means to feel good in your own skin. If it's your first time joining us, make sure you hit that follow button as we drop a new episode each Monday. Welcome to Manhood Matters. Let's get to it. You ain't short, you got a short back. It's funny because um that's what we're gonna talk about today. It's body image, right? Our real selves versus our ideal selves, if there's a difference. And I think that's something that plagues, or at least we think that it plagues women more than anything. We think that women are ultra focused on the way they look. Whereas with men, it's more what you possess. But the reality, if we're being super honest and vulnerable with ourselves, we all have these same issues. We still think about how we look, we still think about how we want to look. When you look in the mirror, do you see yourself or the version that you wish you were?

SPEAKER_00: 2:44

Well, when I look in the mirror, if I see somebody else looking back at me, oh, that's gonna be the issue. I'm like, nah, I see me. As far as image-wise, um, I've learned a long time ago to accept who I am, what I am, how I look, and um came to terms with that. So I marvel at what I see in the mirror. I marvel.

SPEAKER_04: 3:06

Hey, um well, on my side, I I I do hey, I look in the mirror, I say, damn, that man's that man fine. However, if I have an imperfection or something, especially with my haircuts, I I'm really particular on haircuts. And if I don't have a really nice haircut, I pop on a hat. So today I don't have the lining straight, yeah, that type of thing. But I do see two different versions of myself when I look in the mirror. What do you mean by that? I feel like we live between two mirrors. One that shows who we are and one that shows who we think we should be. The ideal self gets dressed in ambition, productivity, fitness. Um, but the underneath part, it can be shame disguised as drive. Um so you know, I I go through like this recreation of myself on a day-to-day basis. I was taught like by my grandmother that when you step out that door, you have to present yourself in a way that hey, people will take you seriously. You know what I'm saying? So every time I step out the door, if it's you know, throwing on some lounge clothes, I have to make sure that I'm I'm tight when I walk out that door. But in underneath, it's like, do I look my top best? Will people take me serious? That type of thing. So even though I may look like I'm put together, it's that always like, damn, do I do I look like I came from somewhere that raised me in a way where I respect myself?

SPEAKER_06: 4:48

Yeah. You know what I'm saying? So I do, I because it's interesting you should say that because I was raised the same. I kind of got over it a little bit, yeah, to be honest. But I was raised in a way where two things were told to me. Um, my grandmother would say, What if something happens to you and you pass out and they down to your underwear, you need to be proper because if you have to cut off your clothes, you know, um EMTs, you need to be proper all the way down to your undies. But the other thing she would say also is you always need to look a way that you'll be proud to meet someone you haven't run into in years. Wow. I look like I'm always making a run to the Home Depot.

SPEAKER_04: 5:26

Right.

SPEAKER_06: 5:27

And I've gotten comfortable with that. But at the same token, I'm always thinking, or every once in a while, this thought will pop up and make me go, if I run into someone that I haven't seen in 10 years, there's always something in the back of our minds that's a little egotistical in a sense to where we're thinking, damn, I don't want to look like I'm struggling in life. I don't want to look like I'm looking, I don't want to look bad or whatever it is. Do you guys feel that way at all? Like, does that ever come up here? All the time.

SPEAKER_00: 5:57

I look at it um, even as a culture with us, a lot of us are taught that way. You know, you look the part you want to be. You know, my when I was growing up, my dad was like, never leave the house, not smelling good. Hygiene is a is a big thing with us. Look like you're somebody at all times. Yeah. But I think one of the things too with black culture, it's all about image with some people. They'll look like a million bucks but only have ten bucks in their pocket. When you look at other cultures or look around, they'll look like they got 10 bucks but got a million bucks in their pocket. Yeah. So you have to look at what's the importance of image. What are you trying to portray or what are you trying to cover, or what are you actually? Yeah. That was one of the things I struggle with before coming up, before I accepted like who I am and what I am, because there's some things you can't change. You can improve. Sure. You know, I'm I'm big on hygiene and like I said, my personal appearance, and if there's any imperfections and everything, I'm I'm on it. Every other Friday, I have called facial Fridays. Yeah. So I go get a facial every Friday, you know. And people are like, man, what you're like, look, it's about what I'm comfortable with, what I want to look like, yeah, and also, you know, self-care.

SPEAKER_06: 7:07

So you say every other Friday?

SPEAKER_00: 7:08

Every other Friday.

SPEAKER_06: 7:09

That's something you made it type shit.

SPEAKER_02: 7:11

Well every other Friday. Every other Friday. It's schedule, facial Friday.

SPEAKER_06: 7:18

I like it. Um, do you miss the image you had in your early 20s when most men are at their peak?

SPEAKER_04: 7:27

Yeah, I could say for me, in my early 20s, I was in a Marine Corps. So my body physically was super tight. It was like eight-pack abs. You could see all the muscle definition comments, I was like a superhero type of shit. Yeah. But now it's like I built up a lot more muscle in the years just because of my eating habits. When I got out the military, it wasn't like the strict, you know, dieting plan, and I kind of got lax on that. But psychologically, I feel like I'm comfortable in my weight now than I was when I was in my 20s because I had to keep up with the military standards of keeping your body in shape and looking like the marine type of thing. But now, you know, I just I just don't really care too much now about my my body image.

SPEAKER_06: 8:18

If you had a magic wand, would you take that body back? Or would you be like, no, I'm comfortable the way I look right now?

SPEAKER_04: 8:24

I would say I would want to take my body back because when you get older, it's the internal things that will catch up with you.

SPEAKER_01: 8:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 8:32

You know what I'm saying? So I would say, yeah, I would snap back and get back to my Marine Corps body and not be uh 250 pounds versus my uh 175 pounds. Okay. You're not exactly a short dude, exactly, you know.

SPEAKER_06: 8:47

Yeah. 250, you're still like all muscle and stuff.

SPEAKER_04: 8:49

Yeah, yeah. I'm not like, you know, six foot, you know, 250 pounds. And it may seem like I got it all together, but hey, my ideal weight was that 175 pounds. I can't even picture you that small. Yeah, yeah. I got some pictures to prove it, but you know, I I don't look like that no more. But um, I'll like to get down to like a 200, 215 type of weight. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06: 9:14

What about you, Santana? 20 years old you versus you now. Well, um And this is a guy who has his own gym.

SPEAKER_04: 9:21

So he'd be in there.

SPEAKER_00: 9:24

Yeah, he's in there. Um well, I guess we all can look back, and when we were that age, we were at our best. I mean, everything was tight. You can hit the gym and do 5,000 crunches or whatever and get back, and you're not sore the next day. Yeah. Now I hit five crunches and I'm sore, you know, but I still get it. I think for me, back in my 20s, I was still learning myself. I was active and was still in self-care and worked out. So now I currently still work out now. So my my whole motto is I had to preserve my sexy as I got older. You know, time is gonna take its its toll on you. And like he says, you know, internal things, you know, I have aches and pains that may pop up every now and then when I do certain things, but I actually try to keep my body fit and in its shape. I'm a big component of self-care and being healthy, eating right, vegan lifestyle, herbs, teas, all that every day is a lifestyle for me. I know today I even got my love my plant water. Yeah. So I drink that every day. I do fasting and everything to rebuild cells and all that. So yeah, I would like the body back, but I look good now to be in my 50s. Exactly. And I'm still, I still got the abs, I still got the, you know, I'm not as big and you know, ripped as as then.

SPEAKER_06: 10:37

That's that's the only difference, right? Because I've known you for years. Only difference is like you're not as big as you used to be, muscle-wise, but you're cut up. So you got the body most 20-year-olds wish they had. For me, it's the opposite. Because I was always a real skinny, scrawny little dude all my life. Athlete, played sports, ran around. But if you know, we played contact sports and you bumped into me, I was gonna fly off somewhere because you know I had zero, zero mass, right? So for me, I look at so it's it's interesting that you guys both kind of touched on it. So for me, I like the way I look now a whole lot better because now I got the muscle and I feel better and I look better. But the way I felt back when I was 20 is totally different because case in point, I went to play soccer with my son and nephew about a month back and pulled both my hip flexors, right? Just got hurt and don't laugh, but this was during the warm-up. I didn't even play a game. I said not to laugh, bro.

SPEAKER_00: 11:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_06: 11:40

So, because you know, back in the day, I just show up, not even warm up, play a game, play a second, then another team would call me and be like, hey, can you play? Can you sub in tomorrow because somebody's out? If I get hurt, yeah, I bounce back to two days later, three days later, I'm in the game. Right. Well, I'm still limping from this shit from a month ago, right now, and it's gonna take me a while to heal. So that's a thing, you know. I was playing with my with my dog just yesterday. I threw the ball and he came back charging full speed, ran into me, took me out like a bowling ball. So, you know, and I was on the ground, I was like, oh man. You know, it's funny because again, the way I used to heal, we all used to heal differently, and that's just the human body. But if I'm being vain, of course I like the way I look better now. If you look at me back then, I mean he's always making fun of me because he's always been so much bigger than me. He'd be like, We got a neck size, what is it?

SPEAKER_00: 12:31

You got a 12-size neck to come to work with his neck sitting in the shirt. Oh my god. Like, man, how do you have a turtleneck dress shirt?

SPEAKER_06: 12:47

Oh my goodness. Oh man. But yeah, dude, it's it's yeah, the way I look now, I I like the way I felt then. I wish I could get back. So why was it for you guys? What's influencing your body image now?

SPEAKER_04: 13:01

I have a couple of uh different types of phases of influences. So my first phase was women. I have to have this this body, I have to be, you know, I I had no choice but to be six foot, but apparently you have to be six foot and over to, you know, get a good looking woman or whatever. You know what I'm saying? That's what I'm hearing. Look at us. I mean, that that shit's ridiculous to me. You know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_06: 13:28

That's this, that's what they're and again, that's more of a social media thing because that's not something I grew up hearing. Yeah. If I had grown up hearing this, I would have been so self-conscious, man. I would have been like, oh my god, I'll never get a woman. It's crazy. Right, right. But I've never had any issues, right? So it's crazy, but now it's like been propagated by social media. But go ahead.

SPEAKER_04: 13:44

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, it was this, you know, women being attracted to me. And then uh once I he just made it too, six foot on the dot. Yeah, six foot, not six foot one. Just made it, just made that shit. Like, oh my god, thank God, thank you, mom. You know, okay. I can't I can't give my the credit to my father because he's like five foot five. Yeah. And my my mom was like, she was like almost six foot, but not quite there. But um dad's a hero, right? Yeah, I was like, man, what? But uh, but yeah, you know, once I got the girl and you know, the wife and everything, and then uh started having kids, now my my image switched from this good-looking single man to I have to be like almost like a like a superhero for my kids. Protector. Like a protector, like, hey, your dad got you. If you're in any trouble, if you if you need help with anything, like I'm there for you. And I have to be a role model for my kids too, because it's like you have to be disciplined, you have to like if you go to my house, everything, I'm kind of OCD. Like everything has to be in a certain place. It's not just about body image, it's about how people see you on a daily day, and it helps your mental health too to have everything organized in a way where you can just get through the day. Okay.

SPEAKER_06: 15:08

We're visual creatures. I can't be the only one, but I'll ask. You ever feel like when you look at another brother when they look at you automatically there's like this subconscious way where you're sizing each other up? Oh, yeah, that's a natural instinct. Yeah, yeah. It's almost like bouncers in the club. Right. Yeah. You know, like they're six, five, six, six, big guys.

SPEAKER_04: 15:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06: 15:29

90% of those guys can't fight to save their lives, they're just big. And that perception. The image and perception makes you not even want to try it.

SPEAKER_04: 15:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06: 15:36

I'm not gonna lie, man. There's been times where I'll be standing there and I don't care, I don't think about it, whatever. But if I'm standing there with my wife and my kids, and then there's any perceived possible danger, you puff your chest out a little bit. Right. You know, you do something to make me whatever I don't know what it is, but it's something about that. The defensive stand, man. Yeah, you kind of stand there in a way where no one sees it, but you know it. You know what's happening internally, and then there's a silent language or something, certain things that's exchange. If there's another person who walks in and that person may be perceived as trouble, you make sure that they see you and they know what's up.

SPEAKER_04: 16:13

No, that's very true. I go through that same thing, you know what I'm saying? And I was a mixed martial arts instructor for in the in the Marine Corps. And um, and before I became an instructor, you know, I was I was heavy in mixed martial arts. So this guy, he was like six foot five, and of course, you know, I'm six foot, but this guy was damn near 300 pounds. Mind you, if you remember, I was like 175 pounds. Yeah. And I'm like, how the hell I'm gonna take him down. But it was like, if you're in the battlefield, you're gonna go against guys bigger than you. So you got to fight him. I got choked out, man. I'm waking up seeing stars and stuff. They was like, go at it again, and I'm go at it again. And I'm like, okay. So I finally got him in a chokehold. But I mean, I didn't choke him out. I finally felt what it was like to fight someone bigger than you. I'm gonna choke him out. I don't care. That guy was huge. Yeah, I got him out. That guy was huge, but um, but it it it taught me a couple of things. It's like you got what it takes to defend yourself and your family.

SPEAKER_00: 17:20

See, with me, um, being always a shorter person, I was always challenged. They underestimated me. One of the things my um a little saying we had, um my uncle said, he was like, because he was short in stature too. He was like, man, no matter what the size, as long as you're there to energize.

unknown: 17:37

You know?

SPEAKER_00: 17:39

Do your thing. And I that was my motto on everything. And I looked at everything. Even growing up, I guess the things that kind of made me change or kind of sculpted my image was um, like I said, being, you know, I'm like your dad, you know, five, five, whatever. Right. Growing up, it it bothered me at first because I have females like, oh, you you look good, you know, but you too short. You too, you know. I was like, hey, hey, no matter what size.

SPEAKER_02: 18:06

I mean, hey, they better recognize it.

SPEAKER_00: 18:12

They better recognize who they messing with. Exactly. So I I remember in the third grade, I was in the third grade, and somebody said that to me. It was this female that I liked. She's like, You're a great guy. I love being with you. You you're nice looking, always look good, smell good. But you that short. I can I was like, all right. I said, that's something I can't change.

SPEAKER_06: 18:29

Was your voice that deep in the third grade?

SPEAKER_00: 18:31

It was this deep. Okay. Hey, I had to compensate, so I was doing everything. So um, I was like, let me change what I can. So I started working out. Yeah. So I, you know, started hitting the gym working out. You know, I was like, I can't grow up, but I can go out. Old when you were so working because you got into bodybuilding pretty young, right? Yeah, I was doing powerlifting and all that. So I was like, I was always underestimated because of my size. Like, uh, dude. And I used to wear big hoodies and stuff when I went into the gym. So no one can even tell. They can't tell. So you put full plates on that bar. Oh man, yeah. We used I used to wear money, bets like that in the gym. It's like, oh little man, what you can't, you know, whatever, this and that. And I was like, all right, let's let's let's have a bench press contest. Let's see how many we can we can rep out. It's like, ah, they'll laugh and everything. And they got this guy on Facebook now that's doing something like that. He'll, you know, act like he's a foreign. I know what's talking about. Yeah. I was that guy back in the day. So I would get down there, you know, they'll they'll put the weight on there. I'm like, ah, you know, they big. Imagine, you know, they're six foot, two hundred and some pounds, I'm five, five, one fifty-five. Right. So, but they didn't know I can lift three times my weight. So they down there, they got on, they put two two 45s on, you know, in the side, and they getting 10, like, oh, and struggling at the last year. I was like, okay. So I get up under there and I was like, man, I think I might need a spot. They give me a lift off, you know. Right. People, you know, people that knew who I was or worked out with me or been through my workout resume, like Stefan, you know, they know. Yeah. So he goes hard. So they like, man, oh man, I bet$100, you know, yeah, you're gonna get this little dude. You know, I'm I'm hustling. I get on there and I was like, man, and they'll they'll lift it off. I start shaking a little bit, and I put it on my chest and like, oh, act like I can't lift it, then I rip it out 20 times. So what the hell? Then I come out of my sweater, you know, like this was missing. Yeah, this is. See, um they can't even, I got a um tattoo on it. They used to call me the big little man. So but yeah, I just I just decided, I just started accepting myself. And now when I'm in a room, people say, you know, I'm I'm short, but they're like, man, when you walk in this room, you walk in like you 6'6. Yeah, confidence. You know, it's that presence, it's that confidence. So I was like, you know what? Once I accepted who I am and appreciated and loved me for me, every bit of it, that aura, that image, all that, you expel that out. That all that comes out. And when you walk into a room, they like, oh, everybody stopped. And people come up to me, they're like, you like somebody I need to know. You, you know, you you look like somebody. I was like, I am somebody. Yeah. Put that gesture, I am somebody. You know? So but once I accepted who I was and my mindset changed, image was what I expected of myself or appreciated of myself. And I was like, regardless of what everybody else thinks or whatever, I love me.

SPEAKER_01: 21:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 21:28

And once you love yourself, everybody else feels that. That aura supersedes you, and when you walk into a room or supersede you when you're in a meeting or whatever, and they they show you respect because you respect yourself. Right. And that image and everything is upon you.

SPEAKER_06: 21:41

So is that something we can kind of like pass on to someone listening? No one is not just perfect, but no one thinks they are. We love ourselves, we love our own imperfections. Right, right. It's really what it is. But someone might be struggling with something else, like maybe they're overweight and the way they show up, they don't feel good about it. Sometimes there's a lot of different things, and sometimes there's maybe a chronic condition they might have, things that we don't know. But is there, I guess, is there a fine line between self-criticism and self-improvement?

SPEAKER_00: 22:11

It is. It is, yeah. Like I said, if you don't love yourself or see yourself in a certain way, you're not gonna take the time to improve or do anything. First, when I train someone, I was like, the first thing I try to teach them to accept themselves, love themselves. Yeah, you're here now. Right. But everybody's been here. This is the beginning point. But we're trying to get you to this end goal. And it takes you to have the determination and a love for yourself to push you there. Because everybody said, Well, I need to be motivated. No, motivation comes second. It's your determination, your love for yourself to get you there. Once you start, the motivation comes. So love yourself first, accept yourself first and all this imperfection, anything, accept you, love you. Because if you're not gonna love you, who who else is gonna love you?

SPEAKER_05: 22:55

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06: 22:56

And it it's what you said, it's very, very powerful. Motivation comes second. A lot of people think it's the other way around. I need to be motivated. How many times have we heard that? I need something to motivate me to get up and go do this, right? Right? When in reality, it's you do the thing and it's the action that creates the motivation, is what you're saying. I love that. Um, do you think men underestimate how much body image affects their own confidence?

SPEAKER_00: 23:21

It's true. I see it with people in the gym and just working out this every day. But with me, you know, too, I guess the more fit I am, the more attention I get, the more confident I feel. That's true. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06: 23:34

You don't have to be in the gym. Like I could be wearing a suit, bro. You know, you got a dress shirt on, you know, and and you just kind of walk into a meeting, and there's a way that you're perceived. First thing they see is discipline. Yeah. Because you're not just you're not born with it. And then again, we're seeing how a lot of these young kids look these days anyway. It's like they're not taking care of themselves either. So it's not just a natural thing. So they can see the discipline, but you are perceived a different way.

SPEAKER_04: 23:57

Right.

SPEAKER_06: 23:57

You shake someone's hand, they can feel that firm handshake, they can feel that strength, and they're like, there's a way that people see themselves, which is why I ask if there is a lack of confidence, even subconsciously, from men when they have this body image that they're thinking about.

SPEAKER_00: 24:11

It could be learned too, like with me, one of the things my dad taught me, um, I guess the perception, I learned adaptability. Like we say when I'm going to a meeting or whatever, something corporate, I'm gonna look the part. I'm gonna look my best at that. I'm gonna have the suit, tie, everything like that. But if I'm going to rock with my boys, I'm up in the hood, I'm not gonna wear a suit. I'm gonna put on the scully hoodie, I'm gonna look like, hey, don't in every and I guess in every um atmosphere, I want to look like you don't want to try me in that. So if I need, if I'm in a hood atmosphere, hey, that dude hood. If I'm in the corporate, oh, he's about his business. If I'm everyday lounging or I'm in the gym, like, I ain't gonna mess with a little bit. Nobody lounge better. Yeah, exactly. So that's adaptability and be able to adapt to your surroundings so that you fit in, like the whole saying back, we wear the mask. Right. You have to know when to take it off, when and when to change it, when to put on the right mask, when not. But I think the image of kids today, they just like I'm gonna look this way everywhere I go. They haven't learned that adaptability and how to be a chameleon or to be presentable in the environment that you're in.

SPEAKER_04: 25:18

I agree with that, but I also have an other side I because sometimes I go against the grain in some of my environments. Like, for example, the corporate environment. Everybody wanna have a suit and tie and all this other stuff. I got tattoos, I wear earrings, I do, you know, all that. But when I come there, I come in a suit, but I have my my uh shirt unbuttoned down. I got my chains on, I got, you know what I'm saying? I kind of, you know, I got a pinky ring on, I got nice watch on, I still got my earrings on, but I got a clean cut and I'm suited, booted, ready to go. So when I speak to them, it's like, oh, okay, this this guy got tattoos, he he this, okay. Let me let me listen to him.

SPEAKER_06: 26:01

But let me ask you that. Yeah, yeah. Gotcha. Did you do that the very first time, or they just at this point, they know your reputation precedes you, so they know the caliber of person you are?

SPEAKER_04: 26:12

No, I did it the first time. Really? Yeah, that's like how much confidence I have in myself. Because if you're not gonna accept me for who I am, then that's on you.

SPEAKER_06: 26:22

But let me ask you this though. Yeah. We actually had a conversation about this where we talked about authenticity, right? Right. Authenticity is great, right? But be authentic when it's necessary? No, be authentic when it's truly authentic. And what this young lady said on the pod was it's not authentic to be authentic in the workplace because you're not the workplace.

SPEAKER_04: 26:44

Right.

SPEAKER_06: 26:45

The workplace is the workplace, and she was basically saying, I can go in there and do a deal for 15, 20 million dollars and conduct myself the way I would conduct myself authentically with my friends and family. So I have to show up a different way. Okay. So I guess I'm asking, not that it's wrong, the reason I'm pushing back is I'm asking, what gave you the size balls that you had to walk into a meeting with a pinky ring shred on button every time you show up somewhere, there's a there's a look. Right. And it's usually it's very unique, which is cool because I can see that authenticity in there. But in the corporate environment, how do you pull that off?

SPEAKER_04: 27:17

Um, it's going back to like my man over here said, you have to give like an aura. Is that that energy that you put off? Right. So, you know, I was on multiple panels at my job, and uh, we were speaking on leadership development, being a consultant, being a project manager, working with multi-million dollar companies and all this other stuff. And I walk in there with the same getup, you know, with a two-piece suit, sometimes three-piece suit, and the image that they have of me is kind of similar to like like a celebrity, for example, The Rock, right? You know, The Rock, he has his tattoos, he he walks in there, and everyone knows he's coming in there and he's gonna take control of the room, right? His energy, his aura, his presence, everything. So when I walk into that, that's how I feel when I walk into there, and that's how they perceive me. And everyone talks to me with respect. They say sir, they say, you know, gentlemen or whatever.

SPEAKER_01: 28:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 28:20

But you know, when I'm not in a corporate setting, I kind of still have that, even with when I'm with my friends and and my family. And that's how I love to dress. I I love style, I love dressing up with, you know, red bonhoms sometimes. And sometimes, you know, you don't have to spend all it, all this money to have this image. You could just go to different, like uh, for example, um Zara. Sometimes I just go to Zara, get some stuff off the rack. Sometimes I dress it up with some stuff off a Sheen or Amazon or whatever. And um so it's your creativity putting things together. Yes, yes. It's just like who I am. Like we talked about artists and everything like that. That I'm not gonna change myself to accommodate for your comfort. I'm just gonna just be who I am. This is me all the time. Yeah. And it gives me uh a sense of peace and happiness because now I don't have to live up to a standard for someone else.

SPEAKER_06: 29:18

All right, that's well said. What is an insecurity, just one insecurity that you've learned to embrace or laugh at? Uh hair loss. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 29:27

Yeah. So when I was saying like Join the club, man, bro. Man, but I joined the club a few times and I got some feedback, and I'm like, man, should I go, should I go to Tupac or Suge Knight? Everybody calling me Sug Knight for some odd damn reason. Yeah. I was uh at uh fellowship, Cam Newton Spot, and one of their marketing directors came up, and one of my homeboys, Tyreek Washington, was there, where Dr. Tyreek Washton was there, and uh they was like, Hey, can we take some pictures of you and all this other? I was like, Yeah, sure. So they took a picture, and you know, that picture. Picture you got a lot of views and a lot of likes and all this other stuff. And on the comments, they was like, hey, I see Suge Knight is back and something like that.

SPEAKER_00: 30:08

And I'm like, oh man, not again. Well, when I'm I'm gonna be honest, man, you do look Suge Nicey. You look like it's if you did the ball ahead.

SPEAKER_04: 30:21

If I did the ball ahead, it's over with, man. But like I said, I have a bad hairline day, so I slap on that cap type of thing. But yeah, you know, I laugh at it because I mean, like, you know, my wife, she embraced it and she was like, hey, you look good either way with with the fibers or without the hair. So yeah, yeah. So without the fibers, it's you're bald.

SPEAKER_06: 30:42

Yeah, it's like you could see it's thinning on the top, and it's like, oh man. I started losing my hair in my late 20s, bro. It was like it was thinning and I had locks. So it was just it was just thin, yeah, it looked funny as hell because you know, you couldn't tell if I didn't show you, but I would know. And then eventually over the years, it just got worse and worse and worse. And one day I just you know decided I was just gonna shave my head. First of all, everyone loved it because I was in the corporate world and I had locks or whatever. So I show up in a suit the next day and people were like, Thank God, I'm glad you did this, right? And I'm like, Really? Like, no one was gonna say anything. And then one guy was like whispers. Yeah, right. One guy was like, You got a nice shaped head. I never thought about that. But yes, it's something I did I did struggle with it, but it's been decades, so I'm not I'm not concerned about it. But for me, what's always been something that I've had to embrace, and I didn't embrace it until probably the last, I don't know, maybe past 10 years or so. Right, yeah. It was the same thing. He said my height. I was like, I'm a short dude. And it was always something to prove. When I was a kid, I'm always the smallest kid in in class. So I'm gonna pick a fight at times just to make a point. Right. Yeah. Right. So I wasn't always that way. I wasn't just troublemaker, but um, there were times, like, you know, playing with my friends, I had to be the loudest voice. I had to be the leader. You know, when I was in uh in my band when I was doing music, same thing. I had to be the leader. I had to be the guy who wrote the most songs, I had to be this guy. Always wanted to be that guy because, and maybe subconsciously I was compensating for it, but at the same token, that's kind of who I am anyway. Like I take the lead, I take charge.

SPEAKER_04: 32:18

You know what's funny? You you said about mentioning about height. I was called wasn't tall enough before when I was dating. It was uh it was this one woman, she was about maybe five foot seven, and you know, we met on a date nap type of thing. I would have been eye to eye with her. And she was like, I was like, what's wrong? It's like I thought she would be taller. I'm like, I'm taller, I'm looking like looking over you. You got heels on, yeah. It's just like she wants some like basketball looking. You gotta pick her up, yeah, like a baby.

SPEAKER_00: 32:51

Like, come on. I didn't had that joy. You you too short. You they expect you to pick. I man, I picked this one girl up. She was like 280. I was like, what? You want me to rather and I and I walked with her and then I put her down, she just looked at me like, mm-mm. I didn't know you could do that. I was like, see, no matter what the size. Like Steph said, I used to be self-conscious about my height too. Like I said, back, it was at a younger age that I accepted it and was like, man, forget this. I I don't care what y'all say, whatever. Um, because I used to compensate for it. I was a funny guy and doing all that, but yeah, it's funny by nature. That's just what I do. Until females would say, Oh, yeah, you're cute, you this, but you just too short. And I was like, well, damn it, that ain't gonna change, you know. And we could move from there. Right. But once I accepted that and started having that confidence, I noticed throughout the years it didn't matter. You know, they would say they wanted this six foot tall, this whatever, but I was still pulling them. Yeah. In college, I had a girlfriend that was on the basketball team. She was six four. Wow. And look, and they was like, people like, man, how'd you get that? I said, why wouldn't I? Right. I was everybody's hero and I did stuff like that. I was like, it didn't matter if you portray that weakness or you put that on French, they're gonna feed on that. Yeah. My image, you know, I was confident who I was, regardless of I could have been 3-9. I'm gonna still, she can be 6'6 or whoever, I'ma still push up on her.

SPEAKER_04: 34:25

Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 34:26

You know, most men are intimidated by, you know, like their image of what their lack of. I was like, you know what? I don't care. And I tell I I remember going up telling the woman, you know, she was, we was talking, I was like, hey, you need a short man story to tell your girls. Yeah. Hey, I'm gonna do that for you tonight. So I mean, and they laughed, they was like, man, you you coming here. That's why they said I walk into a room like I'm like 6'6, whatever the confidence that goes out before me, you know, that that whole aura, that energy. Yeah. So I was like, you know what? I can't change it. I'm gonna accept it and embrace it and move forward. Like you were saying back in the days of perception when they saw me growing up because I was a shorter guy or whatever, they always oftentimes tried me. My mom was, she was about four nine. She was a firecracker. She was eight, but and and she knew I was gonna be short, so she made sure I knew how to take care of myself. Right. So growing up, I did martial arts, I boxed, I learned how to use anything as a weapon. And I I mean, I took that literally. I I would make weapons in our shed and do it. Well, but people would would try me, but they did that once, no matter what the size.

SPEAKER_06: 35:29

No, that's gonna be the name of this episode. Do you think your health goals or your training regimen, I should say, are truly about wellness or is it about appearance? Uh for me it's both.

SPEAKER_04: 35:47

But it's it's heavy on the wellness side now. I used to work out every day. It was like, I don't know, like breathing. And I used to eat whatever. You know, I used to go to buffets, I used to go eat anything. It was it was crazy. And I used to just burn it off. But now, since I'm older, you you don't got that high metabolism to just burn everything. And then on top of that, now you got family. Now you're busy with, you know, taking care of your wife, taking care of your kids, all this other stuff. Plus, you got a career and everything like that. So now it's more of concentrating on my diet. My diet is everything. Most of the time I eat once a day. You know, then I have you know. Hey, it works once you get that for you.

SPEAKER_00: 36:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06: 36:31

Both of you guys with that whole yeah, uh, what do you call you'd be fasting? This guy goes 72 hours a month, which is some wild shit. Yeah. No, every two hours, bro. I'm subbing down and I ate already. I think you have to build up that momentum. But I also, our metabolism is a different my body type is oh yeah. I if I don't hit the gym in two weeks, I lose 10 pounds. Okay. That's why he had that 12 neck.

SPEAKER_00: 36:56

He was see, so he has to compensate for that. I'm saying, God damn.

SPEAKER_04: 37:04

Hey, man, hey, that's a superpower. You can do that.

SPEAKER_06: 37:06

God damn, having that 12-neck, man, god you be hitting on 12 neck, I'm telling you, man. It's got it wasn't funny at at 30, but at 50, it's like, thank god I got a 12 neck.

SPEAKER_04: 37:18

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you have to you have to count your blessings on that one, man, because a lot of people can't can't do that. You know what I'm saying? And we have to, for me, it's like, okay, I need to concentrate on my diet because, you know, my sibling is having some health issues right now, you know what I'm saying? And I'm like, I have to really concentrate on the eating and snacking and all the other stuff. Like, I have to really get disciplined on that that aspect. Everything else, like my physical appearance, will fall in place if I focus on that dieting.

SPEAKER_06: 37:51

That's true, you know? So for me, it was always about appearance. That's why I go in the gym and worry about the exercises that would make me look good and not focus on endurance strength. I was just like, no, I just need to build a certain shape, and I was sculpting my body, right? And that's all I was about. Yeah. Now it's changed to I care way less about how I look, and I want to focus on longevity. Exactly. Prolonging my life, making sure that things don't hurt or take and heal faster, to your point. So now I'm I can say I'm 85% wellness and 15% appearance. Yeah. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00: 38:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06: 38:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 38:27

And you've done my workout, so you know with me. That's why I am come back. Like, but I mean, prime example, you said you went in there just to sculpt the look.

SPEAKER_01: 38:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 38:36

My whole thing is about functionality.

SPEAKER_01: 38:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 38:38

So when when he started doing my workouts, you know, I'm having you do everything, use muscles that you haven't used. Yep. You know, I'm big on like calisthenics and everything. I especially as you get older, you you start, your body starts to change or whatever. You have to have that functionality to be able to have that longevity. So not necessarily about image. Like you said, it's gonna come. Right. If you do the right steps and do the right thing, the image is gonna come, the look is gonna be there. But you just gotta develop your your not only your muscles, your joints, everything works together. It's a unit. So that was one of the reasons I became vegan. Um I had some health issues, and honestly, through what I ate, I made food my medicine. And well, I can say I had a little about with prostate cancer. But through diet, exercise, vegan, I did herbs, sour sap, all that things. Did Dr. Sabi's whole regimen.

SPEAKER_01: 39:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 39:28

The last three biopsies, nothing. They couldn't find it. Where it was that even tested down to the DNA. It was like, I don't know what you did or what you're doing, keep doing it. That's all amazing. That's all amazing, brother. So it's about health, longevity, functionality. Yeah. You know, I work out still four to five days a week, but it's not, I'm not in there lifting heavy weight like I used to, benching 370 pounds, squatting, you know, five. Nah, I'm not doing that. I put some little weight on there and do a lot of reps, whatever, and do functionality, calisthenics, and everything like that. But because I, you don't heal like you used to, you know, it's not about that image with me. I was like, I still look good for my my age, and but I want to be healthy and I want to be here for the long haul to take care of my kids and family to be there.

SPEAKER_06: 40:13

That's well said, man. So, what would self-acceptance look like without giving up on ourselves? Look like me? No. You know, because there's that there's that, you know, person listening and the message could be misconstrued, right? Whether you're hearing, well, accept yourself the way you are, love yourself. We're saying both. We're saying that that's where it starts, but then there's something you want to fix. You can go ahead and take the steps, the actions, and the motivation will follow as you said, Santana, right? But what does that acceptance look like?

SPEAKER_04: 40:45

I would say you have to you have to accept the fact that you're going to have different phases and different images of yourself throughout time. Okay, accept that because you're not gonna be the same person five years ago, ten years ago, not even a week ago. Because you're you're on this course to your ultimate self, right? Yeah. So you're not gonna hit your ultimate self next year. You're gonna get hit your ultimate phase next year. So that next phase, you're just gonna be like, okay, this year I'm gonna do bodybuilding. The next year you might say, uh, I don't want to do bodybuilding no more. I want to just focus on healthy lifestyle habits. And that is a part of who you're going to become.

SPEAKER_03: 41:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 41:33

Accept the fact that you're not perfect. Accept the fact that you're going to change. You're going to go through a metamorphosis throughout your whole entire life. And all because you're 80 years old, 90 years old doesn't mean you're the wisest person on the face of the earth. All because you're a president, all because if you're a pope and all this other stuff, that doesn't mean you're like the wisest person on the face of the earth. You just have to accept yourself now and accept your change.

SPEAKER_00: 42:02

Yeah. One of the things too, I wanted to make clear for people that say, you know, hobo, accept who you are. When you do that, understand the process. You have to accept wholly everything. If you're overweight 300 pounds and I accept who I am, then accept the consequences that come along with that. Oh man, wow. You have to really, and people don't think about that. I say, okay, well, I'm comfortable with okay. If you're comfortable with who you are, be comfortable with diabetes. Be comfortable with high um hypertension. Be comfortable with the core morbid conditions that can come with where you are right now, accepting that what you are. Right. So please understand that I I don't knock you for accepting who you are, but accept it wholly because it's gonna change, you know, that those processes, it's gonna change how you react, how you deal with things day to day. If you accept that you want to be unhealthy or overweight, then accept the things that can come along with it. You accept that you're gonna be live a healthier lifestyle, gonna change your life, want to better yourself, hey, then accept that things. If you did have high blood pressure and you did the building blocks of things to get rid of that, because you accept it, like I want to live to be here with my kids. I want to be a be a healthier person, I want to get over this illness or whatever. So that's accepting that reality instead of what you're doing now. So, and you accept all the responsibility that comes along with it.

SPEAKER_06: 43:17

Well, well said, that's powerful. How can men support each other in those insecurities? The biggest challenge, we're not talking about no damn insecurities with no other dudes. Right. So it's you know, it's funny because now I'm older, it's different. Because I can go into a regular gym and see a dude doing an exercise and be like, bro, I want to get those arms. Tell me what you do. I have no problem being comfortable with saying that, right? But most men still struggle with that. If they have an insecurity, they're not sharing it with anyone else. Right. How can we support each other better with those, with the whole body image thing?

SPEAKER_04: 43:52

Doing activities together, get them out their comfort zone, get them comfortable to open up about some of their insecurities. You know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_06: 44:01

Because I was gonna say outside of the gym, right? Because a lot of people who struggle with that, they're not in the gym. Right, right, right, right. So, what do you find those guys?

SPEAKER_00: 44:07

And wh how do you help them? Us as men, we have to learn to get over the ego thing. We think it's not mancho or certain people look at us a certain way, or even, you know, if you open up, it's considered a a feminine trait or whatever. Yo, he he's off, he this is whatever.

SPEAKER_01: 44:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 44:24

I think if we're gonna be better, we have to embrace our village, the people that are around us, and like you said, compliment each other. Be and it ain't in a way that you're trying to be feminine or whatever, but you know, where we are and whether it's the perception. So, and that can be a hindrance to a lot of us as men because we can open up and we suffer silently, and it ends up being detrimental to us. But um, I think like if we embrace the unity as a man and you know, we help each other like like sisters, they all hey, they they'll high depth, you know, each other, whatever, and they can somebody can have stretch marks, they'll oh girl, work them stretch marks. Hey, you know, they do that little thing that we love each other. Yeah, they're really comfortable with that. They'd be like, come do stretch marks, come do, you know, they'll get your hair. Exactly. See, men don't do that.

SPEAKER_06: 45:08

And it's we don't compliment each other like in the gym, we might. Because gym culture is different. Yeah, out in real life, but again, as we get older, we get more comfortable with that because I'm not concerned about your small mind thinking. Like if you misinterpret what I'm saying, right? You know, I love my brothers, I want to see them succeed, I want to see them thrive. So I might pay that compliment, but I guess it's something that we don't do nearly as well as women. Like we just don't do that for brothers.

SPEAKER_00: 45:33

Yeah, yeah, because we are worried about what they may perceive their what they may think. Oh, this trying to no ditty.

SPEAKER_06: 45:40

Yeah, yeah, no didn't say and that's the thing. You're worried about what people might think, and you're worried about that because that's that's a concern for a lot of men. Yeah, it is. You guys have been very vulnerable and very open, so this is along those same lines here. When you strip away comparison, ego, expectation. We talked about body image a lot, but who are you really? And are you okay with that version of yourself?

SPEAKER_00: 46:07

With me, um, I always try to be better than what I was yesterday. So I can't say I'm okay with myself because I'm always constantly improving. Life is a learning journey.

SPEAKER_01: 46:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 46:17

Um, I try to learn something every day and get fulfilled every day. And I so I'm never comfortable with where I am in a sense, but I don't think it's it's looking at it as a weakness because I'm always better myself. If it's learning from, you know, a mistake I did before to get better, to get over that. Even interacting with my my wife, my daughter, I have to check myself and better myself and how I'll speak to them or discipline or everything. So it's always I'm always striving to be better every day. If it's just 1% better, I've done if I've done one thing better than I did yesterday, it's successful. But me, I can't, I can't say, you know, I'm I'm gonna be settled and happy with, you know, because I want to continue to to improve. Even on my deathbed, I'm trying to, you know. I'm fighting, you know, I'm gonna give my last break. And it's better than yesterday. You know, you know.

SPEAKER_06: 47:09

I'm gonna die better than anybody's ever died before.

SPEAKER_00: 47:12

No one's ever died better than me. Put a trompe on them, but but yeah, um once you get comfortable with yourself and you accept everything about you, you can't do anything but improve every day. Because you you have that mindset, that awareness. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And you're in tune with stuff. So every day is an increase. Nice.

unknown: 47:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06: 47:38

How about yourself, Kelly? Who are you if we strip away all that other stuff we were talking about, expectations, ego, and all of that. Who are you? And are you okay with that version of yourself?

SPEAKER_04: 47:47

I would say I'm okay with the version of myself because the person that I am is a person who's resilient, a person who's always focused and always putting people before, you know, myself, which can be a pro and it could be a con. But my history of my life, I'm blessed with the good experience I had and the bad experiences. You know, like my brother said over here, it's like, you know, I'm going to continue to um seek improvement for myself. But yeah, yeah, that's I I accept all of me. And if I go tomorrow, I'd be happy on the version that I became. Nice.

SPEAKER_06: 48:28

And one final thought from each of you, which is a message to your younger self since then I get it started. No matter what. No.

SPEAKER_00: 48:40

Um just be okay with who you are. You're you're never gonna be perfect, but you can be good at what you do. You can be perfect within yourself. Believe in yourself, confidence comes within. You can always be better. You're always better. One of the things that I believe in affirmations, mindfulness. If I could tell my younger self some of the beliefs and things that I had, I would have never struggled or went through some of the issues that I I went because it was all about, you know, not being self-aware, um, self-confident, and trying to portray an image that other people had made for me or what I saw instead of accepting who I am and instead of being what they want me to be, to be who I wanted to be. Yeah. And one of the things I learned also was I can meet people where they are without losing who I am. And that's what I would tell myself. You know, to still be you at all times, never compromise, but understand the process, understand the environment, understand your abilities, and um let's know who you are. Powerful. Thank you.

SPEAKER_04: 49:43

Kelly. Yeah. Um I would say continue to listen to your mother. My mother used to tell me, keep your eyes on the prize. No matter what type of distractions or obstacles that come in your way, there's always gonna be that. There's always gonna be challenges, there's always gonna be something come up to push you a step back. But always remember that there's more than one way to get over an obstacle, to get over a challenge and to always love yourself because there's gonna be times when the people will may say things to you, may do things to you that will always question yourself, but always have confidence in what you believe in, and always have confidence that you will get through any challenge if you believe in yourself. Beautiful. What about you, Stefan? What would you say to your younger self?

SPEAKER_06: 50:35

For me, it would be I have everything that I need, I am everything that I need. I used to really be hung up on thinking that I need things and people, and I don't. So when it comes to things, many material things, that's different today because I have responsibilities towards other people. But that's pretty much where it stops. I wish I would have realized a long time ago that I don't need things or people. I would have been a lot happier. I want to thank you guys for being here, man. It's been an amazing conversation. I I I picked the right two partners to have a conversation like this with. You guys brought a lot of wisdom to the pod. So thank you both. Santana Kelly, thanks for being here, fellas. Santana, you are gonna do the outro today, and you have to pick whichever celebrity you want to be, and uh, I will send you the monologue so you can go and get started, bro.

SPEAKER_00: 51:31

I don't know. I just been listening to a lot of Trump. That's okay. Hey, let's listen to the truth.

SPEAKER_06: 51:37

Hey, you wanna do the I do Donald? I do Trump. All right, cool. Hold on. That's just gonna get me expelled from the damn country. I know they're gonna come after you. All right, so are we changing it up? Bernie Mac, it is?

unknown: 51:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06: 51:51

Alright. All right, Bernie Mac, it is. Do your thing, brother.

SPEAKER_00: 51:54

Hey man, I'm here. This is burning the Mac, motherfucker. I'm telling you, y'all ain't worrying about stretch marks and getting these muscles and shit. Y'all need to be worrying about getting some. But I ain't gonna say that this is another podcast, but I ain't scared of them, motherfuckers. So you better listen to the Mac Man on here and manhood manners. Love yourself and love them motherfuckers that don't hate you too. Cause I'm loving Mac, I'm dark, black, man. This whole room gets dark in them motherfuckers. But I'm gonna tell you, manhood manners. This is the Mac Man. You turn in to get some good news, get some good vibes. We'll see you next week. Get out of them, motherfucker. That's good. That's really good, brother.